WEBVTT 00:00:10.453 --> 00:00:14.906 Hello to our listeners and viewers. 00:00:15.033 --> 00:00:18.876 Welcome to the second episode of the government's podcast, 00:00:18.997 --> 00:00:22.166 Gov.si, prepared by the Office of Communication. 00:00:22.306 --> 00:00:25.070 I'm Petra Bezjak Cirman, and I'm joined by 00:00:25.191 --> 00:00:29.696 Dr. Janez Potočnik. This year marks the 20th anniversary 00:00:29.856 --> 00:00:33.662 of Slovenia's EU membership, so we'll devote this episode 00:00:33.796 --> 00:00:39.069 to a look back at our accession, our role today, 00:00:39.209 --> 00:00:41.069 and our future in the EU. 00:00:41.216 --> 00:00:44.535 Mr. Potočnik, let's go back 20 years when you were 00:00:44.683 --> 00:00:47.215 Slovenia's chief accession negotiator. 00:00:47.336 --> 00:00:49.822 The head of the core negotiating team. 00:00:50.016 --> 00:00:53.802 The head of the core negotiating team. What did that mean 00:00:53.923 --> 00:00:57.702 and how do you remember that time? -I remember it fondly. 00:00:57.863 --> 00:01:02.349 It was one of those periods when Slovenia was very united. 00:01:02.476 --> 00:01:07.002 There were some 12 or 13 people in that core group. 00:01:07.163 --> 00:01:14.329 We were all experts, so it wasn't a politically nominated body. 00:01:14.503 --> 00:01:18.369 This was very important because it allowed us 00:01:18.529 --> 00:01:21.629 to maintain a certain impression in Slovenia, 00:01:21.769 --> 00:01:26.199 including among politicians. And it wasn't just an impression; 00:01:26.359 --> 00:01:29.155 we could also function that way. 00:01:31.583 --> 00:01:36.526 Slovenia entered the so-called Luxembourg Group 00:01:36.663 --> 00:01:40.802 of six countries just barely at the beginning 00:01:40.949 --> 00:01:46.206 because we were burdened by the fact that we had been 00:01:46.369 --> 00:01:51.143 a part of the former Yugoslavia and the recent events there. 00:01:51.276 --> 00:01:56.646 At the beginning, we were seen as not quite prepared, 00:01:56.789 --> 00:01:59.656 but as the negotiations continued, 00:01:59.769 --> 00:02:04.502 and not just because of the core group, but also because of people 00:02:04.623 --> 00:02:09.849 in the ministries and the European Affairs Office, 00:02:09.983 --> 00:02:13.622 as well as Minister Bavčar, who was very effective, 00:02:13.756 --> 00:02:16.182 these things began to move forward 00:02:16.343 --> 00:02:18.869 quickly and in a coordinated manner, 00:02:19.009 --> 00:02:25.102 so we slowly became seen in the EU arena 00:02:25.269 --> 00:02:30.849 as a party that knows what needs to be done, 00:02:31.009 --> 00:02:37.616 that is well-prepared, and that has a fairly good starting point. 00:02:37.737 --> 00:02:41.909 Would you have done anything differently? Looking back today, 00:02:42.030 --> 00:02:46.090 the fact that Slovenia was the first of the Balkan countries 00:02:46.243 --> 00:02:50.789 to join the EU was a huge success. Would you have changed anything? 00:02:50.910 --> 00:02:54.776 We tend to become wiser with age, but as I look back, 00:02:54.929 --> 00:03:01.129 it seems we handled the process in the best possible way. 00:03:01.256 --> 00:03:07.623 We had an interesting approach, 00:03:07.763 --> 00:03:11.636 which turned out to be effective, 00:03:11.816 --> 00:03:16.782 namely that we systematically presented 00:03:16.903 --> 00:03:23.489 our level of readiness and everything else 00:03:23.636 --> 00:03:26.269 in various EU capitals. 00:03:26.416 --> 00:03:29.129 When we went to Helsinki, for instance, 00:03:29.250 --> 00:03:33.756 we invited all the representatives of the diplomatic corps, 00:03:33.896 --> 00:03:36.356 including those from other countries, 00:03:36.516 --> 00:03:40.369 which then reported back home that we were well-prepared. 00:03:40.503 --> 00:03:44.209 We went on such circuits through all EU capitals, 00:03:44.376 --> 00:03:47.242 and our message simply spread. 00:03:47.403 --> 00:03:50.776 The first Slovenians to be born in the EU 00:03:50.923 --> 00:03:54.289 head to the polls this year, and they can't imagine 00:03:54.456 --> 00:03:56.236 what we went through. 00:03:56.369 --> 00:04:02.149 Well... Things looked difficult then. There was a lot of work. 00:04:02.276 --> 00:04:09.736 We needed... Our work was essentially technocratic. 00:04:09.949 --> 00:04:13.562 The negotiations that are brought up were more frequent 00:04:13.683 --> 00:04:15.689 in Slovenia than with the EU. 00:04:15.836 --> 00:04:19.409 We needed to convince people at home, 00:04:19.530 --> 00:04:24.829 both businesspeople and others, why this makes sense. 00:04:24.956 --> 00:04:29.082 Was it important then that the politicians were so united? 00:04:29.223 --> 00:04:31.089 Of course. That was vital. 00:04:31.236 --> 00:04:36.295 They really were united then, and we worked hand in hand. 00:04:36.416 --> 00:04:39.189 We were the only ones who got approval 00:04:39.329 --> 00:04:43.129 for our negotiating positions in the Slovenian parliament. 00:04:43.250 --> 00:04:47.496 That didn't happen elsewhere. But we never had any problems. 00:04:47.649 --> 00:04:52.089 Quite the opposite. It turned out that we had made 00:04:52.243 --> 00:04:57.886 people feel a part of this story. 00:04:58.056 --> 00:05:01.449 They were never excluded, and whenever we have 00:05:01.609 --> 00:05:05.195 such processes, it's vital that you're inclusive 00:05:05.329 --> 00:05:08.809 from the start because trying to get people on board 00:05:08.930 --> 00:05:12.616 when the decisions have been made, people no longer feel 00:05:12.756 --> 00:05:14.436 a part of the process. 00:05:14.589 --> 00:05:17.215 This virtue is often forgotten nowadays. 00:05:17.329 --> 00:05:21.175 Perhaps, but that was our modus operandi at the time, 00:05:21.323 --> 00:05:29.263 and it was a part of the success that we can reflect on today. 00:05:29.396 --> 00:05:32.822 If we look at your biography, it's quite extensive, 00:05:32.963 --> 00:05:35.762 so I picked out some highlights. 00:05:35.903 --> 00:05:39.342 You were a cabinet minister, a European Commissioner 00:05:39.489 --> 00:05:43.475 for several terms, a recipient of three honorary doctorates, 00:05:43.596 --> 00:05:47.975 and after concluding your terms as as a Commissioner a decade ago, 00:05:48.169 --> 00:05:53.022 you were named a member and co-chair of the International Resource Panel. 00:05:53.143 --> 00:05:56.769 People would like to know what you're doing these days. 00:05:56.876 --> 00:06:00.622 The International Resource Panel is an important story. 00:06:00.783 --> 00:06:05.349 There are three important scientific-political associations 00:06:05.470 --> 00:06:07.936 under the auspices of the UN. 00:06:08.136 --> 00:06:12.102 The one most people are familiar with is IPCC, 00:06:12.229 --> 00:06:16.836 the International Panel for Climate Change. 00:06:16.983 --> 00:06:21.486 Then we have IPBES, which studies biodiversity 00:06:21.629 --> 00:06:24.982 and extinctions. Finally, there's our panel, 00:06:25.103 --> 00:06:29.635 the International Resource Panel. These are all UN panels. 00:06:29.776 --> 00:06:34.835 Our panel is in charge of all natural resources, 00:06:34.956 --> 00:06:38.975 how they are managed, and their connections 00:06:39.116 --> 00:06:40.796 with the business world. 00:06:40.943 --> 00:06:45.089 While the first two panels deal more with the consequences, 00:06:45.236 --> 00:06:49.036 we deal more with the causes and what needs to be changed 00:06:49.169 --> 00:06:52.982 to prevent the consequences. -With your PhD in economics, 00:06:53.103 --> 00:06:57.089 what's your view? Capitalism used to be all about profit, 00:06:57.243 --> 00:07:01.302 and things such as natural resources and the wages of workers 00:07:01.476 --> 00:07:05.689 were forgotten. How do good companies behave today? 00:07:05.883 --> 00:07:12.675 Good companies are still primarily measured 00:07:12.843 --> 00:07:16.849 by their performance, and that's OK. 00:07:16.976 --> 00:07:20.235 The problem is more in what market signals 00:07:20.356 --> 00:07:23.155 we send to manufacturers and consumers, 00:07:23.316 --> 00:07:26.582 and how we define the value of natural resources. 00:07:26.729 --> 00:07:30.762 They're often priceless. Natural resources tend to have 00:07:30.909 --> 00:07:35.683 an inherent value, but when you place them in the context 00:07:35.816 --> 00:07:39.502 of a market economy, elements to which you don't assign 00:07:39.643 --> 00:07:44.606 a value won't be used responsibly. 00:07:44.723 --> 00:07:47.976 They'll be used excessively, and that's happening 00:07:48.136 --> 00:07:51.155 with our use of various natural resources, 00:07:51.316 --> 00:07:54.455 from water, soil, building materials, and metals 00:07:54.629 --> 00:07:58.269 to energy and everything else we need. If these things 00:07:58.409 --> 00:08:02.502 aren't valued correctly, the manufacturers get the message 00:08:02.656 --> 00:08:06.549 that they don't need to care about resources 00:08:06.723 --> 00:08:11.902 and aren't responsible if they'll be available to future generations, 00:08:12.069 --> 00:08:16.915 as long as they make a profit for themselves right now. 00:08:17.069 --> 00:08:20.195 In the meantime, the consumers get the message, 00:08:20.336 --> 00:08:23.902 and this happens a lot during the Green Transition, 00:08:24.036 --> 00:08:27.422 that everything connected with the Green Transition 00:08:27.596 --> 00:08:31.976 is more expensive in some way. Healthy food is more expensive, 00:08:32.123 --> 00:08:38.566 as are environmentally friendly food and electric cars, 00:08:38.743 --> 00:08:41.869 when compared to cars with internal combustion. 00:08:42.036 --> 00:08:44.966 And this is precisely the wrong signal. 00:08:45.223 --> 00:08:52.301 We were taught in school that price signals 00:08:52.422 --> 00:08:56.282 are the key market signals, so if we receive such signals, 00:08:56.403 --> 00:08:59.269 then playing on the conscience of people 00:08:59.390 --> 00:09:06.576 is a bit... hypocritical. 00:09:06.716 --> 00:09:13.029 It doesn't match what we're preaching to them via the market. 00:09:13.150 --> 00:09:16.455 The market is telling them to behave differently. 00:09:16.582 --> 00:09:20.782 How can an average European or Slovenian with an average wage 00:09:20.903 --> 00:09:24.741 adapt to this new reality? You mentioned that diesel cars 00:09:24.862 --> 00:09:28.976 will no longer be available; electric cars are more expensive, 00:09:29.097 --> 00:09:33.249 and we know what our wages are like. What does the future hold? 00:09:33.383 --> 00:09:38.916 You mentioned the key point that I try to emphasize 00:09:39.076 --> 00:09:42.549 when I speak with my international contacts. 00:09:43.503 --> 00:09:48.275 If there are no socially acceptable preconditions 00:09:48.443 --> 00:09:51.809 for the Green Transition, 00:09:51.943 --> 00:09:53.562 it won't happen. 00:09:53.716 --> 00:09:56.569 What form should that take? Subsidies? -No. 00:09:56.690 --> 00:10:00.355 When distributing things, we simply... Too many people 00:10:00.476 --> 00:10:02.855 are leaving on the edge these days. 00:10:03.023 --> 00:10:08.286 For instance, there has been quite a bit of talk 00:10:08.456 --> 00:10:12.229 about artificial intelligence. Perhaps you remember 00:10:12.369 --> 00:10:18.055 what Elon Musk said recently, namely that when AI 00:10:18.229 --> 00:10:23.223 becomes widespread, we won't need jobs for people. 00:10:23.323 --> 00:10:28.516 That means we'd have to move toward a universal basic income. 00:10:28.669 --> 00:10:32.822 Otherwise, we know what would happen in our societies. 00:10:32.943 --> 00:10:36.796 We'd have people out of jobs. -Could Slovenia be the first 00:10:36.917 --> 00:10:40.981 country with a UBI? There has been a lot of talk about that. 00:10:41.102 --> 00:10:44.135 It's right that we're talking about that today 00:10:44.256 --> 00:10:46.815 because that's where society is headed, 00:10:46.956 --> 00:10:49.835 but in the context of the Green Transition, 00:10:49.963 --> 00:10:54.869 it's important that we don't... Creation is the key, because 00:10:55.023 --> 00:10:57.596 if you don't create, you can't share, 00:10:57.703 --> 00:11:02.482 but all the mathematical models indicate that our economic system 00:11:02.623 --> 00:11:06.942 is making the rich richer and the poor relatively poorer. 00:11:07.076 --> 00:11:11.196 That doesn't mean that they don't have more in absolute terms, 00:11:11.329 --> 00:11:13.989 but they're poorer relatively speaking. 00:11:14.123 --> 00:11:18.389 Experts who work in this field tell us that only redistribution 00:11:18.549 --> 00:11:20.483 can address those challenges. 00:11:20.643 --> 00:11:25.829 My point is that if we wish to carry out the Green Transition, 00:11:26.002 --> 00:11:30.861 all governments need to tackle not just how we're going to create, 00:11:30.982 --> 00:11:35.115 but also how to achieve fairer redistribution, which is vital, 00:11:35.255 --> 00:11:40.261 and to ensure all preconditions. The environment and social welfare 00:11:40.382 --> 00:11:44.606 are two sides of the same coin. 00:11:44.756 --> 00:11:49.886 In practice, you can't introduce things that aren't acceptable. 00:11:50.029 --> 00:11:55.828 Anyone who has been a minister or involved in governance 00:11:55.949 --> 00:11:58.213 knows this very well. 00:11:58.369 --> 00:12:01.815 That's why creating these preconditions is the key. 00:12:01.949 --> 00:12:06.475 Is Slovenia on the right track in terms of the Green Transition? 00:12:06.643 --> 00:12:11.701 How achievable are the goals approved by the European Commission 00:12:11.822 --> 00:12:18.361 last week, such as cuts in various emissions, 00:12:18.482 --> 00:12:22.872 which were also covered by COP28. Is Slovenia prepared for that? 00:12:23.013 --> 00:12:26.446 I cannot say whether Slovenia is ready or not, 00:12:26.567 --> 00:12:30.495 because I do not know the situation so precisely. 00:12:30.616 --> 00:12:35.949 But I do know that the 90 %, which is the goal for 2040, 00:12:36.070 --> 00:12:39.799 is a very ambitiously set objective. 00:12:39.950 --> 00:12:43.005 However, goals are always achievable. 00:12:43.126 --> 00:12:45.778 Where there is a will, there is a way. 00:12:46.026 --> 00:12:49.693 I believe that one of the fundamental lessons 00:12:49.814 --> 00:12:55.046 that we can take away from the period of the COVID pandemic, 00:12:55.193 --> 00:13:01.448 is a number of messages that are very important for people. 00:13:01.653 --> 00:13:08.966 First, if we see something as serious, we also react seriously. 00:13:09.087 --> 00:13:15.616 Secondly, governments generally react insufficiently, too slowly 00:13:15.777 --> 00:13:21.399 and only once it is already unavoidable. 00:13:22.429 --> 00:13:29.086 Thirdly, the financial and innovation potential 00:13:29.207 --> 00:13:31.461 can be activated very quickly. 00:13:31.582 --> 00:13:36.844 We saw how quickly it activated and how much funding was mobilised. 00:13:37.503 --> 00:13:41.066 Fourthly, are systemic changes possible? 00:13:41.187 --> 00:13:44.270 Many say that systemic changes are too hard. 00:13:44.391 --> 00:13:46.641 In 2019, when COVID started, 00:13:46.762 --> 00:13:52.446 without COVID, working from home would have never been implemented. 00:13:52.737 --> 00:13:56.321 Now, working from home is completely normal. 00:13:56.442 --> 00:13:59.780 Regarding human needs, ask yourself, 00:14:00.036 --> 00:14:05.591 how many clothes did you actually need during COVID 00:14:05.712 --> 00:14:08.629 as opposed to before COVID. 00:14:09.111 --> 00:14:14.445 But that was when we worked at home and we could wear sweatpants. 00:14:14.566 --> 00:14:17.233 But that is an actual human need. 00:14:17.354 --> 00:14:21.609 Then ask yourself this: Were you more or less happy? 00:14:22.480 --> 00:14:24.594 This is a crucial question. 00:14:24.715 --> 00:14:30.526 But a negative lesson from this COVID context 00:14:30.647 --> 00:14:35.314 is that we are still not taking climate change seriously. 00:14:36.077 --> 00:14:40.143 Yes. Regarding Slovenia and climate change, 00:14:40.264 --> 00:14:42.264 we have many challenges. 00:14:42.490 --> 00:14:45.895 For instance, we have a lot of PM10 particles. 00:14:46.016 --> 00:14:50.461 We have contaminated areas from past industries, 00:14:50.582 --> 00:14:52.582 as you know very well. 00:14:52.853 --> 00:14:55.603 We also built the motorway network 00:14:55.724 --> 00:14:59.224 and now we all drive cars. I already asked, 00:14:59.345 --> 00:15:02.112 but do you think that we are on track 00:15:02.233 --> 00:15:06.907 to achieving these climate goals, considering our way of life? 00:15:07.028 --> 00:15:11.948 You mentioned a number of things that were accepted in the past, 00:15:12.069 --> 00:15:14.153 but were not all optimal. 00:15:15.513 --> 00:15:23.513 We should definitely focus more on riding trains 00:15:23.634 --> 00:15:30.209 and the railroad infrastructure as opposed to the roads, 00:15:30.466 --> 00:15:34.046 but we always have 20/20 hindsight. 00:15:34.250 --> 00:15:37.500 I think it is crucial that we understand 00:15:37.621 --> 00:15:41.955 where the mistakes were made so that we can fix them, 00:15:42.076 --> 00:15:46.326 and to not give any wrong signals. 00:15:46.500 --> 00:15:51.584 For instance, there is an issue with the traffic in Ljubljana. 00:15:51.705 --> 00:15:54.622 When the debate started on expanding 00:15:54.743 --> 00:16:00.095 the bypass by one more lane ... -And the Štajerska motorway. 00:16:00.216 --> 00:16:03.633 Yes. I said that this is the wrong signal. 00:16:03.754 --> 00:16:08.332 We should have said that in 15 years the use of personal vehicles 00:16:08.453 --> 00:16:13.034 inside the bypass will no longer be allowed except for residents. 00:16:13.155 --> 00:16:17.232 Then the infrastructure would have developed very quickly. 00:16:17.353 --> 00:16:21.605 You have to give clear, foreseeable, long-term signals. 00:16:21.807 --> 00:16:26.195 Without them you are a prisoner of short-term periods 00:16:26.359 --> 00:16:29.344 and short-term interests, 00:16:29.465 --> 00:16:33.719 which often differ from long-term interests. 00:16:33.891 --> 00:16:36.891 And then you get caught up in something 00:16:37.012 --> 00:16:42.522 and it becomes very difficult to change your situation. 00:16:42.643 --> 00:16:46.977 This happens often, in general, not just in Slovenia, 00:16:47.098 --> 00:16:54.262 because policies as a resource are often led very narrowly 00:16:54.383 --> 00:17:00.273 and the results are not viewed horizontally, as part of a whole. 00:17:00.394 --> 00:17:04.548 For example, how a measure implemented in the energy sector 00:17:04.669 --> 00:17:08.599 affects not only energy, but all areas of society. 00:17:08.720 --> 00:17:12.220 You simply have to look at things this way, 00:17:12.341 --> 00:17:17.508 otherwise you can quickly go from one bad situation to another, 00:17:17.629 --> 00:17:20.796 which you will have to fix in 10 years. 00:17:21.241 --> 00:17:24.099 This year we have the European elections, 00:17:24.220 --> 00:17:26.719 which will be attended by Slovenians 00:17:26.840 --> 00:17:30.060 who were born in the EU and know nothing else. 00:17:30.393 --> 00:17:33.838 Voting abstention is very high with young people. 00:17:33.959 --> 00:17:35.815 Why should they go vote? 00:17:35.936 --> 00:17:40.806 Because it is a good idea to attend all elections, not just these. 00:17:41.451 --> 00:17:46.997 We are a part of Europe, 00:17:47.833 --> 00:17:51.354 geographically, historically, economically ... 00:17:51.636 --> 00:17:56.685 That is why there wasn't that much merriment when we acceded 00:17:56.806 --> 00:17:59.806 as there was in some other countries, 00:17:59.927 --> 00:18:06.029 because we saw it as a normal part of our maturing and our life. 00:18:06.262 --> 00:18:12.447 The message for those who can now go vote for the first time 00:18:12.568 --> 00:18:14.526 should be very simple. 00:18:16.704 --> 00:18:19.579 Do not go vote and later complain 00:18:19.700 --> 00:18:22.784 about the things you are unhappy with. 00:18:22.905 --> 00:18:26.406 That is nonsensical and unfair. 00:18:27.376 --> 00:18:32.185 But I would like to say this to the younger generation: 00:18:32.549 --> 00:18:37.695 Be active in this process because you are deciding your fate. 00:18:37.816 --> 00:18:41.339 Do not let others decide your fate 00:18:41.460 --> 00:18:45.248 because they will most often decide your fate in a way 00:18:45.369 --> 00:18:48.536 that maximises their gain here and now. 00:18:48.942 --> 00:18:52.807 Some young people are quite brave in deciding our fate. 00:18:52.928 --> 00:18:56.726 You mentioned Greta. She is an environmental activist 00:18:56.847 --> 00:18:59.846 bringing climate change to our attention. 00:18:59.967 --> 00:19:01.801 Then there is 8. marec 00:19:01.922 --> 00:19:05.846 fighting for a cleaner life for the residents of Anhovo. 00:19:05.967 --> 00:19:10.400 Some youths are environmentally conscious. -Of course they are, 00:19:10.521 --> 00:19:14.687 we were talking about the elections, not groups that ... 00:19:14.808 --> 00:19:17.392 I know a number of those groups. 00:19:17.513 --> 00:19:21.847 I collaborate a lot with young people and such groups 00:19:21.968 --> 00:19:24.718 because our interests are aligned. 00:19:24.995 --> 00:19:32.549 A few years ago I said that the European Green Deal programme 00:19:32.670 --> 00:19:39.526 should be subtitled as "A pact with future generations", 00:19:39.647 --> 00:19:43.652 because that is precisely the message we are missing. 00:19:43.901 --> 00:19:46.643 The current generation should realise 00:19:46.764 --> 00:19:50.643 that it is not only working for its own good. 00:19:50.764 --> 00:19:57.234 Each measure should have a so-called long-term profile. 00:19:57.355 --> 00:20:02.477 It should be verified that it leads in the right direction. 00:20:02.598 --> 00:20:06.135 As families we would do anything 00:20:06.256 --> 00:20:09.641 so our children could have better lives. 00:20:09.762 --> 00:20:13.675 I do not see why we shouldn't do the same in our jobs. 00:20:14.227 --> 00:20:21.926 Do you think that the EU is still achieving its goals or not? 00:20:22.276 --> 00:20:25.419 You know why the EU formed, right? 00:20:25.587 --> 00:20:30.254 It has been achieving its goal, with minor ups and downs, 00:20:30.375 --> 00:20:34.680 more or less successfully for several decades. 00:20:34.963 --> 00:20:38.513 We do not know what could have been without it, 00:20:38.634 --> 00:20:41.006 but we do know how it is with it. 00:20:41.223 --> 00:20:45.608 Despite Russian aggression in Ukraine, on the edge of Europe? 00:20:45.729 --> 00:20:49.406 Yes. It is on the edge of Europe, 00:20:49.527 --> 00:20:56.252 but there used to be many conflicts in that area of Europe 00:20:56.373 --> 00:20:59.945 and we often found ourselves in the middle of them. 00:21:00.150 --> 00:21:04.734 I would like to highlight another dimension of the European Union 00:21:04.855 --> 00:21:06.772 that we often overlook. 00:21:07.709 --> 00:21:11.726 We are the first generation that has ever lived 00:21:12.143 --> 00:21:18.606 in a socio-ecological world of planetary dimensions. 00:21:19.333 --> 00:21:25.519 We are the first. We saw during the pandemic how connected we are, 00:21:25.640 --> 00:21:31.102 we see it with climate change, the internet, global trade ... 00:21:31.337 --> 00:21:36.700 World War II only became a "world" war 00:21:36.821 --> 00:21:41.039 when nuclear weapons became part of the conflict, 00:21:41.160 --> 00:21:45.763 when weaponry that had a global impact was included. 00:21:46.021 --> 00:21:48.942 Today there are many global challenges. 00:21:49.063 --> 00:21:53.574 They cannot be solved partially, or just by Slovenia. 00:21:53.695 --> 00:21:58.631 You can only solve them if you renounce your sovereignty. 00:21:58.752 --> 00:22:02.960 The Paris Agreement is a sort of renunciation of sovereignty 00:22:03.081 --> 00:22:05.222 in the field of climate change. 00:22:05.403 --> 00:22:09.570 And you have to cooperate more than you did before. 00:22:09.691 --> 00:22:12.629 That is the only way toward a solution. 00:22:12.750 --> 00:22:18.774 The European Union is a good model where you can see a lot of things 00:22:18.895 --> 00:22:22.711 that worked well, and those that do not work as well 00:22:22.832 --> 00:22:27.089 and require more attention and greater effort. 00:22:27.210 --> 00:22:35.210 Many nations that do not live the way we do in the European Union 00:22:35.331 --> 00:22:41.685 look to us with some interest in how to use our experience. 00:22:41.892 --> 00:22:46.132 Ultimately, we will have to develop a far more effective 00:22:46.253 --> 00:22:50.605 method of global cooperation than the one we currently have, 00:22:50.726 --> 00:22:54.384 otherwise we simply will not solve certain problems. 00:22:54.505 --> 00:22:58.574 How well is Slovenia doing in Europe, on a scale of 1 to 5? 00:22:58.695 --> 00:23:05.156 There is no scale. Slovenia is probably regarded better in Europe 00:23:05.561 --> 00:23:08.814 than it is among its own residents. 00:23:09.682 --> 00:23:12.952 Interesting, even though a Eurobarometer survey 00:23:13.073 --> 00:23:16.199 shows that we are happy with the EU. -No, no. 00:23:16.320 --> 00:23:21.289 I did not say how we regard the EU, but how we regard ourselves. 00:23:21.495 --> 00:23:26.186 The EU probably regards us better than we do ourselves. 00:23:26.366 --> 00:23:29.779 It may even see us as better than we really are. 00:23:29.996 --> 00:23:34.536 But we are a fairly constructive partner in Europe, 00:23:34.709 --> 00:23:41.090 one that does not cause many problems, like some other countries. 00:23:41.439 --> 00:23:45.853 One whose more extreme inclinations 00:23:45.974 --> 00:23:50.481 are not as prominent or politically active. 00:23:50.788 --> 00:23:54.622 That is why Slovenia, with all of its problems, 00:23:54.743 --> 00:23:59.379 and there are no countries that do not have them, 00:23:59.574 --> 00:24:03.131 is regarded as a normal partner. 00:24:03.252 --> 00:24:07.538 But we are a comparatively small country. 00:24:07.798 --> 00:24:13.854 The fact is that, if you are small, you can be more flexible, 00:24:13.975 --> 00:24:17.642 but it would be unfair of me to not point out 00:24:17.763 --> 00:24:22.918 that in Europe the large countries are heeded before the small ones 00:24:23.039 --> 00:24:27.046 due to their greater economic and political influence. 00:24:27.167 --> 00:24:34.726 But I think that there is no reason to start sounding any alarms 00:24:34.847 --> 00:24:37.165 in regard to Slovenia and Europe. 00:24:37.526 --> 00:24:40.110 You mentioned European countries 00:24:40.231 --> 00:24:43.670 that are perhaps more problematic, so to speak. 00:24:43.791 --> 00:24:47.431 Would abolishing the veto be a solution for the EU? 00:24:47.552 --> 00:24:51.058 Decisions have to be approved by 27 Member States. 00:24:51.179 --> 00:24:55.745 Not every issue can be vetoed, some require a majority. 00:24:55.938 --> 00:25:01.272 A completely fitting question is whether it would make more sense 00:25:01.393 --> 00:25:08.928 to move to majority decisions where consensus is still used. 00:25:10.242 --> 00:25:12.492 That is not a simple issue 00:25:12.613 --> 00:25:18.801 and these things are seriously debated at various conventions. 00:25:18.922 --> 00:25:21.897 I personally believe that 00:25:22.578 --> 00:25:26.306 more in-depth cooperation in more fields 00:25:26.559 --> 00:25:28.846 is simply the right thing to do. 00:25:28.967 --> 00:25:34.443 For instance, Member States have control over tax systems, 00:25:34.624 --> 00:25:39.786 but if we do not begin unifying them, 00:25:39.907 --> 00:25:45.549 as long as they remain competitive within the same space, 00:25:45.685 --> 00:25:47.365 we have a problem. 00:25:47.486 --> 00:25:52.986 There are European countries that are still regarded as tax havens 00:25:53.107 --> 00:25:59.342 and escape rooms for wealthy people and wealthy companies. 00:25:59.570 --> 00:26:06.006 We just quietly accept that, but it is an exceptional anomaly. 00:26:06.221 --> 00:26:09.846 So, we need more unification, 00:26:09.967 --> 00:26:13.415 but in the end the Member States have to agree. 00:26:13.536 --> 00:26:18.734 The European Commission is often seen as technocratic, 00:26:18.913 --> 00:26:22.913 but its only power is that it can make proposals, 00:26:23.034 --> 00:26:26.534 which are adopted by the MS and Parliament. 00:26:26.655 --> 00:26:29.725 But once you adopt them, it is the EC's duty 00:26:29.846 --> 00:26:32.766 to make sure you are implementing them. 00:26:32.907 --> 00:26:38.646 That is what hits a nerve for some, but they already accepted it. 00:26:39.134 --> 00:26:42.142 Would EU enlargement perhaps help? 00:26:42.321 --> 00:26:47.846 EU enlargement makes sense. I have always believed that, 00:26:48.023 --> 00:26:53.726 if Europe wants to realise the dream it has had since the start, 00:26:54.015 --> 00:26:58.682 to be a place of peace, stability, prosperity and common values, 00:26:58.803 --> 00:27:02.803 it cannot be done without including certain parts 00:27:02.924 --> 00:27:07.966 that have historically had the most friction 00:27:08.131 --> 00:27:12.576 and where sparks sometimes turned into wildfires. 00:27:12.771 --> 00:27:17.318 The Balkans must be part of the European Union, 00:27:17.439 --> 00:27:20.007 some other countries probably as well. 00:27:20.128 --> 00:27:23.612 I would also be very happy to talk about Turkey 00:27:23.733 --> 00:27:27.002 and see it as a kind of bridge... 00:27:27.123 --> 00:27:31.446 We're talking about how strong the European Union wants to be, 00:27:31.567 --> 00:27:34.904 how much of a resounding voice, what role does it want to play. 00:27:35.025 --> 00:27:36.798 These are all questions, 00:27:36.919 --> 00:27:41.267 but when we talk about enlargement, I would say another thing. 00:27:41.388 --> 00:27:43.084 It is very important 00:27:43.205 --> 00:27:47.453 that in this process 00:27:49.221 --> 00:27:53.195 the countries that join the EU are as prepared as possible. 00:27:53.316 --> 00:28:01.285 We've learned two things from the consequences of our enlargement. 00:28:01.406 --> 00:28:04.819 The first one is that changes are actually happening. 00:28:04.940 --> 00:28:09.273 We have the power to change countries much more during the rapprochement 00:28:09.394 --> 00:28:11.888 than later during membership. 00:28:12.234 --> 00:28:13.869 And the second one, 00:28:16.293 --> 00:28:22.703 it's very important how... 00:28:22.824 --> 00:28:26.436 Now I've forgotten what the second one was, to be honest. 00:28:26.557 --> 00:28:29.016 It's important, but maybe I'll remember. 00:28:29.137 --> 00:28:32.867 To resolve border issues? -Border issues are a part of it. 00:28:32.988 --> 00:28:38.107 If they are not solved, they are transferred to the EU, 00:28:38.228 --> 00:28:40.178 where all the members are equal, 00:28:40.299 --> 00:28:44.135 and then many times the question you mentioned yourself is consent, 00:28:44.259 --> 00:28:46.817 and then we're stuck. 00:28:46.938 --> 00:28:52.820 So I think it's very important that these two things 00:28:52.941 --> 00:28:55.010 are looked at together, 00:28:55.131 --> 00:28:58.805 and that we think about the role of Europe 00:28:58.926 --> 00:29:02.831 in a more strategic way. 00:29:03.162 --> 00:29:07.309 I already mentioned the latest Eurobarometer survey. 00:29:07.430 --> 00:29:10.137 It was done last year, it measures public opinion. 00:29:10.258 --> 00:29:14.203 It shows that the people of Slovenia feel like citizens of the EU 00:29:14.324 --> 00:29:19.069 and that we're above average in favour of EU policies and proposals. 00:29:19.190 --> 00:29:23.130 On the other hand, if we go back a little to environmental problems, 00:29:23.251 --> 00:29:28.411 we see farmers' protests, even in Slovenia due to Natura 2000. 00:29:28.532 --> 00:29:30.698 We see the French farmers, 00:29:30.819 --> 00:29:35.045 the farmers' protest has been going on for quite a few weeks. 00:29:35.166 --> 00:29:37.211 Why is there such a gap? 00:29:37.930 --> 00:29:42.866 Is Europe still alienated from its people or not? 00:29:42.987 --> 00:29:45.645 To what do you attribute this gap? 00:29:45.766 --> 00:29:49.300 Is the EU alienated from its people? I would urge the people 00:29:49.421 --> 00:29:53.816 to approach the EU, because it's hard for the EU to approach the people. 00:29:53.937 --> 00:29:58.492 But all these things you've mentioned... 00:29:58.613 --> 00:30:03.636 I think it's nice to see such an attitude to the EU in Slovenia. 00:30:03.757 --> 00:30:08.105 It's only right. There are certain protests, 00:30:08.226 --> 00:30:11.401 but there will always be protests. It's only right. 00:30:11.522 --> 00:30:14.600 By the way, talking about the farmers, 00:30:14.721 --> 00:30:18.209 I think they're right in many ways. 00:30:18.606 --> 00:30:25.316 Sometimes everything appears to be 00:30:25.437 --> 00:30:30.406 a conflict between environmentalists and farmers, 00:30:30.695 --> 00:30:33.826 but the vast majority of farmers and environmentalists 00:30:33.947 --> 00:30:35.687 have exactly the same interest. 00:30:35.808 --> 00:30:39.548 Who doesn't want to preserve the biodiversity of pollinators 00:30:39.669 --> 00:30:44.396 or quality land that will give better crops? 00:30:45.036 --> 00:30:49.210 But farmers should... 00:30:49.442 --> 00:30:52.929 For a decent living, farmers should first 00:30:53.050 --> 00:30:56.313 gain a recognition on the market. 00:30:57.167 --> 00:31:03.388 Their share in the food chain should increase 00:31:03.509 --> 00:31:07.813 compared to the share of other stakeholders in the food chain. 00:31:07.934 --> 00:31:11.690 But they don't have much bargaining power in the food chain. 00:31:11.811 --> 00:31:13.610 These are the basic questions. 00:31:13.759 --> 00:31:15.817 In the end, these things... 00:31:15.938 --> 00:31:19.145 You mentioned Natura 2000, 00:31:19.266 --> 00:31:22.111 let me tell you what I think about that. 00:31:22.232 --> 00:31:24.900 Thank God Slovenia decided... 00:31:25.021 --> 00:31:28.647 I don't know how it got to almost 38%, 00:31:28.768 --> 00:31:31.706 we're the country with the largest share of Natura 2000. 00:31:31.830 --> 00:31:34.201 Believe me, in the long run, 00:31:34.461 --> 00:31:39.738 this is the greatest wealth we could have secured for posterity. 00:31:39.859 --> 00:31:43.189 Yes, in the short term, it causes some problems here and there, 00:31:43.310 --> 00:31:46.183 but Natura 2000 was never intended 00:31:46.534 --> 00:31:51.643 as an area completely protected from humankind. 00:31:51.764 --> 00:31:56.734 It was meant as a responsible coexistence of man and nature, 00:31:56.855 --> 00:32:01.106 always. But the farmers are absolutely right, 00:32:01.227 --> 00:32:07.699 if someone declares a part of their territory protected, 00:32:07.944 --> 00:32:12.102 in this case, if there is a public interest, 00:32:12.223 --> 00:32:17.718 there must also be public money to compensate for this fact. 00:32:17.839 --> 00:32:19.769 It's often the case in Slovenia... 00:32:19.890 --> 00:32:25.215 I've also seen this in other areas, for example, with cultural heritage. 00:32:25.336 --> 00:32:28.553 You can't have... For example, I come from Kropa. 00:32:28.674 --> 00:32:32.308 You can't have an entire village culturally protected, 00:32:32.429 --> 00:32:35.604 but when there is a need for public money, 00:32:35.725 --> 00:32:38.708 after all it's in the public interest, 00:32:38.829 --> 00:32:41.581 there's no money or it's hard to get. 00:32:41.704 --> 00:32:46.576 Public interest must be accompanied by public funding. 00:32:46.807 --> 00:32:50.419 It's better to protect less, but effectively. 00:32:50.726 --> 00:32:56.492 In the case of Natura 2000, we have a common agricultural policy, 00:32:57.007 --> 00:33:00.034 we have a big EU budget, 00:33:00.155 --> 00:33:04.639 but if farmers were compensated enough through the market, 00:33:04.760 --> 00:33:06.606 then this money, 00:33:06.727 --> 00:33:11.036 instead for compensation of their loss of income, 00:33:11.157 --> 00:33:18.417 could be used to help them shift to long-term sustainable farming. 00:33:18.538 --> 00:33:22.469 This is again in the public interest. -But it's more expensive. 00:33:22.592 --> 00:33:27.893 Yes, but aren't you interested in eating healthier food? 00:33:28.014 --> 00:33:30.928 Very much so. -So why not? 00:33:31.049 --> 00:33:36.285 I just want to say that public money 00:33:36.546 --> 00:33:40.209 cannot primarily cover some private interests. 00:33:40.330 --> 00:33:43.770 Public money must take care of the public interest. 00:33:43.891 --> 00:33:47.631 We can talk about how broad this public interest is, of course. 00:33:47.752 --> 00:33:50.205 Preserving the countryside is a public interest, 00:33:50.326 --> 00:33:52.592 it has no direct connection with farming, 00:33:52.713 --> 00:33:56.017 but it should absolutely be something we support. 00:33:56.138 --> 00:33:59.999 In any case, the money we have today 00:34:00.120 --> 00:34:05.444 should to a much greater extent be directed to support changes, 00:34:05.723 --> 00:34:08.384 while the basic activity 00:34:08.505 --> 00:34:13.454 should be profitable on the market, 00:34:13.575 --> 00:34:17.230 so that people, in this case farmers, could live decently. 00:34:17.351 --> 00:34:22.103 I come from a farm and I know exactly what it is to work on a farm. 00:34:22.224 --> 00:34:25.993 If there was anything I really hated in my youth, it was... 00:34:26.114 --> 00:34:34.108 Harvesting potatoes? -No, no. I was basically a sport addict. 00:34:34.282 --> 00:34:37.641 When the weather was nice, 00:34:37.873 --> 00:34:41.622 we were in the field making hay, 00:34:41.743 --> 00:34:44.310 when the weather was bad, we were free. 00:34:44.431 --> 00:34:47.457 That doesn't work. -That didn't work out well. 00:34:47.578 --> 00:34:50.055 That memory stayed with me, 00:34:50.176 --> 00:34:54.108 but I will always respect farm work. 00:34:55.526 --> 00:34:59.846 We have a positive trend in feeling European, 00:34:59.967 --> 00:35:02.482 but we are less in favour of the proposal 00:35:02.603 --> 00:35:05.747 of a common European policy on immigration. 00:35:05.868 --> 00:35:09.505 We're also talking about the climate refugees, 00:35:09.626 --> 00:35:13.501 we're talking about the people from war-ridden countries. 00:35:13.759 --> 00:35:17.498 Prime Minister Robert Golob proposed 00:35:17.619 --> 00:35:20.850 educational centres be set up in Africa, 00:35:20.971 --> 00:35:26.609 where Africans could study European languages, 00:35:26.730 --> 00:35:28.912 and learn to live in Europe, 00:35:29.033 --> 00:35:32.814 thereby stopping illegal migration 00:35:32.935 --> 00:35:35.602 and the many casualties of the Mediterranean Sea, 00:35:35.723 --> 00:35:37.715 and getting the necessary labour force. 00:35:37.836 --> 00:35:41.501 Do you think this is a solution for Africa? You're often there. 00:35:41.622 --> 00:35:43.908 I would go a step further. 00:35:44.261 --> 00:35:50.888 We have to look at the historical relationship between Africa and Europe. 00:35:51.009 --> 00:35:55.920 We know that many European countries were colonisers, 00:35:56.041 --> 00:36:00.313 more colonisers of natural resources than people, 00:36:00.434 --> 00:36:03.169 the colonisation of people was a consequence, 00:36:03.290 --> 00:36:07.987 but of access to natural resources, as always in history. 00:36:08.108 --> 00:36:13.826 Whether it was gold, oil, I don't know... 00:36:14.776 --> 00:36:21.404 Any other thing a nation could import to become rich. 00:36:21.525 --> 00:36:24.284 Cheap labour as well. 00:36:24.405 --> 00:36:27.743 There was a lot of that in history. In fact, if we look at 00:36:27.864 --> 00:36:30.712 when these countries became independent, 00:36:30.833 --> 00:36:34.730 it's usually in the 20th century. 00:36:34.917 --> 00:36:39.215 Not that long ago, is what I'm trying to say. 00:36:39.824 --> 00:36:42.919 Today people from these countries, 00:36:43.040 --> 00:36:46.505 mainly because they have worse living conditions at home 00:36:46.626 --> 00:36:51.346 or, God forbid, there are still conflicts, wars, 00:36:51.467 --> 00:36:53.706 of course, they want to come to Europe, 00:36:53.827 --> 00:36:58.912 because we are close, just across the Mediterranean Sea. 00:36:59.033 --> 00:37:04.199 The access via Italy is very fast. 00:37:04.359 --> 00:37:07.923 This pressure of migration is something 00:37:08.647 --> 00:37:13.402 we can't expect to calm down. 00:37:13.523 --> 00:37:17.769 For me, the first and most essential policy, 00:37:17.890 --> 00:37:23.854 if I paraphrase the former US president who said 'America first', 00:37:23.975 --> 00:37:29.455 for Europe it would be 'Africa first'. 00:37:29.704 --> 00:37:35.217 We simply have to start working systematically. 00:37:35.338 --> 00:37:39.814 I think Italy proposed this in its latest conclusions. 00:37:39.935 --> 00:37:42.557 We need to work systematically 00:37:42.678 --> 00:37:47.324 on essentially helping Africa back to its feet as much as possible, 00:37:47.445 --> 00:37:50.529 ensuring the conditions for lower migration, 00:37:50.650 --> 00:37:55.889 and at the same time, when it occurs, taking similar measures 00:37:56.010 --> 00:38:03.108 or measures that would mitigate such things. 00:38:03.229 --> 00:38:06.246 But I think education is essential. 00:38:06.367 --> 00:38:09.704 Education of women, especially young girls. 00:38:09.825 --> 00:38:13.449 It is essential to invest in infrastructure. 00:38:14.368 --> 00:38:17.441 China is very present 00:38:17.562 --> 00:38:20.855 in infrastructure investments in Africa. 00:38:20.976 --> 00:38:26.617 This is a sort of soft colonialism. 00:38:26.738 --> 00:38:32.514 They're building bridges to access natural resources. 00:38:32.666 --> 00:38:35.828 Today, countries that think strategically 00:38:35.949 --> 00:38:39.519 see everything through natural resources, 00:38:39.640 --> 00:38:44.074 where and how they will be able to build bridges. 00:38:44.195 --> 00:38:50.259 I see the African continent as the First World dumping ground. 00:38:50.555 --> 00:38:55.459 Yes, that is part of the moral debt we owe. 00:38:55.580 --> 00:39:02.208 I think the awareness that this is not right is increasing. 00:39:02.329 --> 00:39:06.652 Above all, the African countries are getting louder in saying 00:39:06.773 --> 00:39:10.899 this shouldn't be the case and it is not right. 00:39:11.283 --> 00:39:17.803 The new efforts, connected to the transition 00:39:19.005 --> 00:39:21.703 to renewable energy sources. 00:39:22.473 --> 00:39:28.095 Because the needs for so-called critical materials are very large. 00:39:28.367 --> 00:39:35.431 Both on the side of production of new energy infrastructure, 00:39:35.552 --> 00:39:39.698 and in the use of electricity, 00:39:39.819 --> 00:39:45.696 an electric car uses several times more of these critical raw materials 00:39:45.817 --> 00:39:50.126 than a conventional car with internal combustion. 00:39:50.247 --> 00:39:53.862 Today, these thoughts appear in this context. 00:39:53.983 --> 00:39:57.087 My thinking goes a step further. 00:39:57.208 --> 00:40:02.271 Not to think where we will diversify and where we will get, 00:40:02.828 --> 00:40:06.347 let's think... We don't need a car, we need mobility. 00:40:06.468 --> 00:40:11.314 Let's think about implementing a mobility system, 00:40:11.435 --> 00:40:15.706 investing in a system that will eventually lead 00:40:15.827 --> 00:40:20.447 to needing fewer cars per family, 00:40:20.568 --> 00:40:23.719 relieving the burden of private cars, 00:40:23.880 --> 00:40:28.012 and at the same time offering alternatives to people, 00:40:28.133 --> 00:40:32.791 so they can have choices they don't have today. 00:40:32.912 --> 00:40:36.964 Many people today, especially the youth, are very, very aware 00:40:37.085 --> 00:40:41.610 and like to do that, also because they often have no alternative, 00:40:41.731 --> 00:40:47.193 no other choice. But it is only right to think exactly in this direction. 00:40:47.314 --> 00:40:51.423 You don't need a chair, you need to sit. 00:40:51.737 --> 00:40:54.697 We've already seen such things in history. 00:40:54.818 --> 00:40:58.745 We don't need CDs or tapes, we need to listen to music, 00:40:58.866 --> 00:41:01.887 and today that's basically dematerialised. 00:41:02.008 --> 00:41:06.420 I'm laughing because I'm trying to imagine Slovenians giving up cars. 00:41:06.541 --> 00:41:09.212 They're not giving up... -It's a status symbol. 00:41:09.333 --> 00:41:12.494 It was a status symbol of my generation, 00:41:12.615 --> 00:41:15.730 for the youth it's no longer a status symbol. 00:41:15.895 --> 00:41:20.287 If our generation wants to enforce these status symbols 00:41:20.408 --> 00:41:23.371 on the younger generation, God help us. 00:41:23.492 --> 00:41:27.509 We would live in a world that we made wrong. 00:41:27.722 --> 00:41:33.488 Today, we have a wasteful and unfair economic system, 00:41:33.609 --> 00:41:37.212 and we all know that. If we won't change that, 00:41:37.333 --> 00:41:42.156 let's stop dreaming about dealing with climate change and other things, 00:41:42.277 --> 00:41:45.011 let's stop talking about the younger generation, 00:41:45.132 --> 00:41:49.300 because we don't care about them, we're closing the doors for them, 00:41:49.424 --> 00:41:51.424 and causing them problems. 00:41:51.586 --> 00:41:55.087 The end will be tied to what you just said. 00:41:55.208 --> 00:41:58.198 How would you describe yourself in five words? 00:41:58.319 --> 00:42:02.260 I've spoken to your colleagues from the past, 00:42:02.613 --> 00:42:05.305 you'll see how they described you. 00:42:05.426 --> 00:42:07.914 It relates to the things you've spoken about. 00:42:08.035 --> 00:42:11.634 But first, describe yourself in five words. 00:42:12.854 --> 00:42:15.204 Let me say something first. 00:42:15.325 --> 00:42:20.075 I've never been in favour of people evaluating themselves, 00:42:20.196 --> 00:42:26.812 because everyone usually sees themselves a little better 00:42:27.194 --> 00:42:29.054 than they really are. 00:42:29.293 --> 00:42:33.222 It's also not right, at the end of the day, these things... 00:42:33.343 --> 00:42:39.386 I've never been a fan of, say, at the end of the mandate, 00:42:39.507 --> 00:42:45.190 standing in front of a microphone and listing your achievements. 00:42:45.311 --> 00:42:52.892 You know we're evaluating managers and leaders. 00:42:53.728 --> 00:42:58.178 It's only right to evaluate leaders, even though... 00:43:00.173 --> 00:43:04.506 In any case, I would dare to claim I'm hard-working, 00:43:05.497 --> 00:43:10.368 I always want to cooperate with others, 00:43:10.717 --> 00:43:13.349 I strive for collective action, 00:43:13.510 --> 00:43:17.895 because I'm sure it's simply the only solution. 00:43:18.016 --> 00:43:20.405 I'm always ready 00:43:20.526 --> 00:43:24.394 to discuss even the most difficult things with everyone, 00:43:24.515 --> 00:43:27.434 but not on a personal level. 00:43:27.555 --> 00:43:31.318 You always have to discuss problems in such a way 00:43:31.439 --> 00:43:35.394 that you eliminate the emotional, personal... 00:43:35.515 --> 00:43:37.928 Don't go into personal disputes. 00:43:38.049 --> 00:43:40.410 If you don't agree about something, 00:43:40.531 --> 00:43:42.300 you don't agree about the problem, 00:43:42.421 --> 00:43:45.213 and I'm ready to talk about that as much as you want, 00:43:45.334 --> 00:43:53.199 but you can't make the other person feel bad 00:43:53.710 --> 00:43:55.916 or offend them with anything. 00:43:56.199 --> 00:44:00.243 I've learned in all these negotiations that if you want to achieve anything, 00:44:00.364 --> 00:44:04.080 you need to put yourself in the shoes of the person you're talking to, 00:44:04.200 --> 00:44:05.852 try to understand them, 00:44:05.973 --> 00:44:10.944 and then try to achieve what you want 00:44:11.065 --> 00:44:17.511 and what you know is right by convincing them. 00:44:17.632 --> 00:44:22.112 Involvement is one of the key things for me, 00:44:22.233 --> 00:44:26.863 if you want to be successful in these kinds of processes. 00:44:26.984 --> 00:44:32.244 Otherwise... If you don't do it, you can't do it later. 00:44:32.365 --> 00:44:35.004 When you accept something in a small circle, 00:44:35.125 --> 00:44:38.936 and then try to sell it in a wider circle, there's always a problem, 00:44:39.057 --> 00:44:42.708 because people just don't feel the ownership. 00:44:42.829 --> 00:44:44.429 When you don't have that... 00:44:44.550 --> 00:44:48.902 There's one more thing in life that is far more important, 00:44:49.023 --> 00:44:53.036 and that's trust. It takes a lot to build it, 00:44:53.157 --> 00:44:55.701 but you can lose it very quickly. 00:44:56.053 --> 00:44:58.312 These things... 00:44:58.433 --> 00:45:02.118 Interpersonal relationships are mostly built on trust. 00:45:02.239 --> 00:45:07.580 Above all, now that I am older than 65, I've come to the realisation 00:45:07.701 --> 00:45:11.301 that by far the most important thing in life 00:45:11.836 --> 00:45:15.602 is what you spend your time on and whom you share it with. 00:45:15.723 --> 00:45:19.210 That's the only real commodity that isn't in abundance 00:45:19.331 --> 00:45:21.547 and you don't know how much of it you have. 00:45:21.668 --> 00:45:24.691 Let me tell you how other people see you. 00:45:24.812 --> 00:45:27.552 As a forward-looking strategist. 00:45:28.102 --> 00:45:29.702 Would you agree? 00:45:29.920 --> 00:45:33.218 Yes, I try to think ahead, if possible. 00:45:33.339 --> 00:45:36.360 You've just shown that by talking about 00:45:36.481 --> 00:45:39.647 how we should live to help the planet. 00:45:41.207 --> 00:45:42.807 Do you agree? 00:45:43.311 --> 00:45:48.813 I am working in this direction. I'm reluctant to repeat this, but... 00:45:50.714 --> 00:45:57.400 I like to talk about the key values 00:45:57.521 --> 00:46:00.115 I think should be followed. 00:46:00.236 --> 00:46:04.188 I try to do that in my life, 00:46:04.309 --> 00:46:07.290 but let him who is without sin cast the first stone. 00:46:07.411 --> 00:46:10.489 Thank you very much for this conversation. -Thank you. 00:46:10.610 --> 00:46:14.311 Dear viewers and listeners, thank you for being with us 00:46:14.432 --> 00:46:17.904 in this episode of the GOVSI government podcast. 00:46:18.025 --> 00:46:19.625 Goodbye.