Hello and welcome to Wion's Global Leadership Series.
It's a show where we interview heads of state
to comment on current affairs, to understand their perspective
and to make sense of our world today.
Our guest today is the Prime Minister of Slovenia, Mr. Janez Janša,
joining us from the capital Ljubljana.
Prime Minister Janša, welcome to Wion.
Thank you. Good afternoon.
Slovenia will take over the EU Presidency next month.
This is a crucial period for the region, because most of Europe
will be thinking about post-pandemic priorities.
How do you plan to shape the EU's policies and priorities
in the next six months and what are your hopes for the Presidency?
Yes, first of all,
no matter who is the President of the Council of the European Union,
the problems coming from the post-covid situation are obvious
and everybody will deal with them.
The key words for this, we hope, post-covid period
are recovery and resilience.
Because the European Union
adapted quite an ambitious economic plan for recovery last year
with our own sources and also European sources.
First time in our history also to be part of it.
There is enough resources, good plans
now we reached the procedure of the approval of the European Commission.
This will be our priority. And also building the capacities,
we missed last year at the beginning of the pandemic,
is also a very important priority.
And of course, we are in the middle of the discussion
regarding the future of Europe,
the conference on the future of Europe
has started a few weeks ago.
The biggest part of the discussion is coming into our presidency.
So, many tasks. We all hope
that we will be able to manage them through the physical meetings,
not via audio/video conferences.
Right. The European Parliament has also backed
a patent waiver for Wuhan virus vaccines,
and more than 100 countries have supported
this resolution of the World Trade Organisation.
But the European Union is blocking it. What is your stand on this?
Well, it's a majority belief in the European Union that
the most important thing regarding helping others
is to provide the vaccines.
Because speaking out about the patents,
knowledge and so on is important, but it doesn't help immediately.
So the European Union concentrated
on the COVAX network
to contribute as much vaccines as possible
to other parts of the world.
And this contributions from different EU member countries
are increasing every day.
Now we've reached the situation where we have more vaccines
in many countries than there is the interest for vaccination.
So the European contribution to COVAX
will be much higher during next months than it was planned.
And this is the most important.
All other debates how to share this knowledge,
how to be better prepared for possible future pandemics,
can take a little while.
But the most important thing is to produce as many vaccines as possible,
to be prepared for new variants,
to have flexible science with answers to new variants,
and to make as high number as possible
of the world population to be vaccinated at the end of this year.
So do you support the patent waiver or not?
Well, I think that this is not a solution. My personal belief.
We are of different opinions inside of the European Union.
My personal belief is that this will kill the competition
which is also needed among the producers
and in the end we will all suffer.
Right. Do you feel that the European Union's actions during the pandemic,
especially on this issue of vaccine distribution,
are at some level counter-productive,
that they are prolonging the pandemic by promoting inequity?
Well, I think it's a miracle.
We needed less than one year to produce not only one,
but many effective vaccines against covid.
We know from the history that during last decades
we needed ten years for some vaccines.
So this was a miracle.
Speaking from the point of the European Union,
I think it was a good decision
to make common purchases,
to make common agreements with some pharmaceutical companies.
Despite the fact that some of those agreements
were not fulfilled by those companies.
But mostly, this common approach was successful,
especially looking from the point of the smaller EU member states.
It would be maybe better for France and Germany,
Italy to deal with this issue separately,
but at the end I think the decision to go together into this battle
was better for Europe and for other parts of the world,
because together we can also contribute
much more doses.
Because we know what's the situation in specific countries,
we know what's the situation on the European level,
and the European Commission can also coordinate help for others.
Much more efficiently than if we were separately in this battle.
Let's talk about your relationship with the EU.
After Brexit there were calls within Hungary and Poland to quit the Union.
How does Slovenia see these growing differences within the block?
And your critics in fact call you a Eurosceptic.
Do you agree with this assessment?
Look, I'm not a Eurosceptic.
I've been fighting for Europe and European values for whole 30 years.
Slovenia is celebrating 30 years of our independence this year.
These days we are in celebratory mood.
30 years ago Europe was our far-away dream.
It came true much faster.
Also the quality of life in Slovenia
has improved significantly during this period.
We are in front of our second leadership
of the Council of the European Union.
I was Prime Minister when we did our first job.
It was valued very much at the time.
We were the first new member country
leading the European Council at the time,
before the Lisbon Treaty came into power
and also the Council of the European Union.
But frankly speaking, you mentioned Poland and Hungary.
The public support for the European Union in Poland and in Hungary
is much higher than for instance in the Netherlands or France.
When we negotiated a closer union 15 years ago,
the so-called Constitution for Europe,
the referendums to approve this constitution
fell in France and the Netherlands,
not in Slovenia, Poland and Hungary.
It is one picture mostly shown in mass medias
and there is the mood among the population,
and this is what counts in the end.
Your government has also repeatedly cut off funding
to Slovenia's public broadcasting service, the STA.
It has become a rallying point for your opponents
and many believe the STA is being punished for their journalism.
How do you respond to your critics?
Well, we are speaking about the political issue
and the political game going on in Slovenia.
I don't know how this goes in India,
but in Slovenia, when the government pays some money,
we need the contract, we need the job to be done and we need a bill.
We are settling these issues now.
We have a ruling from the European Commission about the public financing,
and the government finally settled this issue last week
when we passed the act on financing.
From our side, everything is settled,
but some people in this agency
were politically appointed and they are playing political games.
This is why the loudness of this is so big
it came to India, I see.
But this is not a major problem.
Right. In the month of March in fact
the European Commissioner criticised your comments about journalists.
I'm quoting what they said.
The EU does not accept and condemns
the insulting remarks towards journalists.
And then recently in a tweet you said that
the Council of Europe's Commissioner for Human Rights
is part of the "fake news network".
Where is this going, Prime Minister Janša?
First, it's not the Commissioner of the European Commission.
In Europe we have the European Union
and we have the Council of Europe,
where also Russia and Turkey are members.
This lady is coming from this part of Europe.
Not EU member country and EU membership.
They are two totally different organisations.
And speaking about the free speech and media freedom...
Look, 33 years ago I was a young journalist,
writing critical articles regarding the communist regime.
I was arrested and sentenced to prison twice.
So I know what's the freedom of speech,
I know what's the freedom of media.
Don't believe everything you see written in European newspapers.
There are different newspapers with different opinions.
If somebody wants to check the situation,
they are very warmly welcome to come to Slovenia and to check it,
to read our newspapers, watch our televisions.
Whoever comes would be able to see
that 95% of news are criticising the government,
so freedom of media is total in Slovenia.
I understand and I appreciate you taking all the questions.
The European Union also instituted a new Chief Prosecutor's Office
to investigate corruption cases in the block.
But Slovenia is being accused of not cooperating.
In fact, the Chief Prosecutor herself accused your government of,
and I'm quoting again,
undermining the trust in the effective management of EU funds.
Why has Slovenia not appointed delegates to the new office?
Well, actually the story is a little more complex.
This is not an EU institution, it's the so-called enhanced cooperation.
Many European countries are not participating in this network.
For instance, Sweden is not participating,
Poland is not participating,
Ireland is not participating, Denmark is not participating,
and some other countries.
So it's our free will to join the European Prosecution Office.
We decided to join
and we will do it when we fulfil our national procedure.
There was a problem with this procedure, according to our law
and because we had some problems in the past.
We need more candidates for one post.
In this case, only one candidate for one post
has been proposed from the Prosecutors' Council,
and this is why we are repeating the procedure. This is the only problem.
There is a question I've been wanting to ask you.
Your critics called you Marshal Twito. That's what they called you,
a reference to a dictator of Yugoslavia.
Some others compare you to Donald Trump.
How do you describe yourself, Prime Minister?
I don't have such high ambitions in describing myself.
But speaking of Twitter...
I think that when we are speaking about the freedom of expression
and media freedom,
the freedom of expression of a free individual is first,
and the freedom of media is second.
Twitter is helping the individuals
to express themselves freely on the matters.
Sometimes this is not very welcomed by the journalists
or by the media who had the monopoly over expression in the past.
Technology is bringing changes
and the Internet is the biggest equalizer
after the education in the modern world.
You also just survived an impeachment and there are protests in Slovenia.
What would you say to those 20,000-odd people
who gathered in your capital three weeks ago
to demand that your government should step down
and pave the way for fresh elections?
How many thousand you said?
According to the report I read, 20,000.
Well, there were not 20,000,
but since the pandemic started in Slovenia,
we had protests every Friday.
Every Friday people are protesting against different things,
against vaccination, against the masks,
against the measures we were pushed to introduce to tame the pandemic.
Slovenia is a free country.
Also during the pandemic, which was not very helpful to stopping it,
people have been protesting every Friday.
If you come to Slovenia on Friday, you have to avoid the city centre,
because your movement will be limited,
but your freedom will not be limited.
I'll keep that in mind.
There's a major realignment also happening in Europe
with member states demanding more engagement in the Indo-Pacific.
What, according to you, should be the EU strategy
in this new power struggle, a new power equation?
Personally, I would like to speak about the competition,
not the power-struggle. But in reality, unfortunately,
we came to this situation, it's a power struggle.
And Indo-Pacific, your country especially,
I think is a key point
in this clash of values
which is becoming global on many levels, but we can see,
not totally clear, but still visible division between
the free countries, countries with parliamentary democracy,
with the rule of law,
and the countries with authoritarian regimes.
I think the first countries, free countries,
can only prevail in this clash
if you win in the Indo-Pacific region,
prevailing with your way of life,
so the democracy, the rule of law, respect for different opinions,
and also not interfering in...
Not going into historical disagreements
from centuries ago.
We have to focus on the future, but we should not forget our values.
We recently saw a strong statement from the G7 about China.
It demanded transparency from Beijing on the pandemic.
It also called out the Communist Party
for human rights violations in Xinjiang and Hong Kong.
Some European leaders signed this statement.
Do you believe that Europe as a whole and the European Union
has done enough to contain the growing threat from China?
Frankly speaking, no.
As many times in history,
especially in the last two centuries,
we are seeing an understatement of the situation,
we are seeing behaviour
where the values come second and the economic interests come first.
I think we have to change these priorities.
Values first and economic interests,
which are of course important, second.
We can disagree, we can have different values,
we can still make trade.
This is how life has been throughout history.
But there are some limits
and I welcome the conclusions from the G7
and also the communique from the recent NATO summit
we held in Brussels.
Because, maybe for the first time,
the freedom-loving countries are taking China seriously.
Are starting to take China seriously.
In all of its dimensions.
Sure. What then do you make of statements
like the one that came from French president Emmanuel Macron, who said:
We don't share a border with China, so for us China is not a threat.
The world is global today.
And China is very present in Europe.
It has an even stronger presence in our neighbourhood,
in Africa, in the Mediterranean basin.
We don't have a border with China, but what are the borders now?
It's different if China is your bordering country
and you have some problems, as you well know,
but China is a global power.
It's a much more important challenger
than Russia or some other countries.
I think that the European Union, the United States, India,
Japan, Australia and other countries
have to cooperate and approach China together.
I think that if we are strong, if we are determined,
if we are clear about our values,
we can deal with China peacefully,
we can make trade, but they have to know where the limits are.
The European Union has been accused of basically sitting on the fence.
They want to contain China, but they also want to do business with China.
As you take over the EU Presidency,
will this be one of your top agenda points to ensure
that there is clarity of policy vis-a-vis Beijing?
Look, I'm not against doing business with China.
But I'm against crossing the lines.
One of the lines we are trying to determine now.
In Europe, we are speaking about the so-called strategic autonomy.
We saw last year that almost everything we needed
to tame the pandemic in the first wave was produced in China.
Not in Europe.
Small amounts in India and some other parts of the world.
Now Europe is building capacities not to be dependant
on other parts of the world when we are speaking about
personal protective equipment, critical medicine equipment,
vaccines, everything you need when the crisis is coming.
We are also discussing and I hope we will be successful,
this is also one of our priorities next half of the year,
cybersecurity.
We are also discussing how to be more careful with the technology,
which is very needed, because the cyber threats are second to nuclear.
We have to be aware of that. For the developed countries,
for the modern civilisation,
cyber attacks can cause more damage than any kind of classical weapons.
It's a threat second to nuclear and we have to deal with it like that.
But you are right, the discussion has started,
we are not yet there, but I'm an optimist.
Within few years,
the situation will change and the lines will be very clear.
After that real negotiations with China will be possible,
and this is crucial to preserve the world peace.
Do you believe the US under the current leadership is...
As they say, America is back
and is in a position to lead a global effort
to make sure that we have a rules-based order.
Well, I think that America is the most important
among this democratic block of the countries,
but the situation we face is not the same
as it was during the Cold War.
At that time the United States were more or less strong enough
to deal with nuclear threats
and other threats coming from this cold division.
Currently it's not the same.
If you look at the figures, the man power, technology and so on,
I think that only the North America, the European Union or Europe,
and India, Japan, Australia and some other countries together
can make a real difference.
Not the United States alone.
But without the United States the whole block is not sufficient.
What role do you see for India in this changing world order?
A growing role, a crucial role.
I said at the beginning that even the North Atlantic Alliance,
so the North America and Europe together,
is not enough.
At least India has to join this club, and I hope this will happen.
We don't need something we had during the Cold War
or the beginning of the Cold War, new NATO, including India and so on.
No, we need a flexible alliance
where India is included,
and I think that the negotiations going on
between the European Union and India on the free trade agreement
and other agreements on the table are crucial on this path.
We are in favour of these negotiations.
I think it's not only business as usual,
it's not only about the economic interest,
it's about the strategic interest of Europe and India together.
Right. Slovenia in fact was one of the European countries
that came to India's help during the second wave of this pandemic.
How do you see this relationship going forward?
I'm glad we were able to help a little.
But otherwise I think that the European response
was not as fast as it should be.
The one excuse is that at that time we were still in the middle
of the spring wave of the pandemic, dealing with our problems.
Our neighbours had a difficult situation, Slovenia included,
at the beginning of this year.
But we had a very good discussion with your Prime Minister
during the Porto Summit and I think that...
After this summit some things are very clear now.
Slovenia wants to be a part of this cooperation.
We are aware of the importance of India currently
and even more in the future.
So consider Slovenia a big friend
of the good relations between India and the European Union.
That's very good to hear. Slovenia is also slowly reopening
its borders to tourists and you just told me
I can come there in two weeks from now.
You also adopted different levels of restrictions for tourists
based on which country they're coming from.
How does this tie in with the EU-proposed
digital covid certificate system
and would you push to extend these certificates
to non-EU nations like the United States?
Actually, I'm very glad, and it was a small miracle we agreed so fast,
that the European Union has introduced the EU pass
or the digital green certificate as it was called before.
You know, making a common approach inside the European Union,
which is also the first step
to a common approach towards the third countries.
I hope that the European Union,
on behalf of all member states,
will negotiate the same approach with as many third countries as possible
during next weeks and months.
Not for every single EU member country to negotiate with everybody outside,
but to join forces.
And as I said before, this EU pass is a good basis,
is a first step which is making this common approach possible.
I hope that...
I believe that if you come to Slovenia in August or September,
you will be able to enter the country and the whole European Union
according to a very simple procedure.
We proposed, even before we reached this agreement,
that we should confirm any kind of certificate from the third countries
where similar standards are used for fighting the pandemic.
So if you're vaccinated or tested
and you have some paper or digital proof that this is true,
you're welcome.
Right. I know this pandemic has been a test of leaders
and leadership the world over.
Different countries have done according to their capacity.
What would you say about India's role globally in fighting the pandemic,
from sending medicines to vaccines?
I think that when we started with the vaccination,
there was a huge interest and a very little supply.
A small number of doses coming from the common European purchasing.
We have all been watching India,
because we see that India is a very big producer.
Not only of specific vaccines, but also of the ingredients.
And there was this discussion among us
how to make this cooperation faster, closer and so on.
Then unfortunately India was hit by the delta variant.
It was a very severe situation
and the tide turned, so you needed help.
But I think that when we discussed how to help India,
we all remembered that in the beginning
India was in the supply part of the chain.
A country which helped a lot to neighbours and to all others.
And which was also able to organise its science,
its pharmaceutical companies and production capacities
to produce as many vaccines as possible
in as short a time as possible.
This is a question I should have started with, but I'll end with it.
Post 18 months of the pandemic, Prime Minister Janša,
how are you doing, how are the people of Slovenia doing?
Currently they're relaxing. We are all relaxing.
Coincidentally, as I said before,
we are celebrating 30 years of our independence,
our 30th birthday,
so the mood is quite good because of this.
We're taking over the Presidency of the Council of the European Union
and we are also exiting the epidemic,
so the numbers are going down every day.
Yesterday was the first day after October last year
when we didn't have a single death case from covid.
This was something to celebrate.
The supply of the vaccines is increasing,
people are thinking about vacations,
the summer is coming, so the mood is OK.
We're also opening touristic facilities.
According to the government decision from yesterday,
we're giving everybody a touristic voucher
for 100 euros for touristic and cultural events.
The mood is 100% better than it was during the year.
You're welcome. -That sounds very good.
Thank you very much and happy birthday to your country.
Thank you for joining us
and for taking all the questions that came your way. -Thank you very much.